Team3S

Re: : Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T08:50:04Z

Charles,

Excuse my typo - correct "Algorithms"

>>>Murray Bruns

94 3000GT SL <<Supercharged>>

From: "Willis,Charles E" <Chwillis@mdanderson.org>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 9:19:08 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: re:: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Algorithms?

From: Murray Bruns <murraybruns@yahoo.com>
To: Willis,Charles E
Sent: Thu Mar 11 08:05:27 2010
Subject: [Team3S] re:: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Roger,

Need to update your logarithms, the enginees and technical people I have been working with say 315 or about a 40% increase at 6 pounds. Maybe you forgot to factor in the fact that NAs are 10:1 which effective creates a 10 pound boost environment. As I said in my earlier threads I will dyno after exhaust modifications and water/Meth injection. That is the number I want to see not an intermedate result, of course, if you are really interested in the HP at this point I will accept your financing.

>>>Murray Bruns

94 3000GT SL <<Supercharged>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:25:14 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Murray,

I'm impressed by the clean install of the small and nice blower for sure. I've seen one that was installed directly on the lower intake with lot's of problems on height as well as belt drive. Looks like you have a longer shaft to the blower too but probably strong enough bearings so it will last. Why not creating a kit and selling it ? And what about front wheel traction (depending on the power it makes).

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns



From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100�C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

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Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T08:30:04Z

Very cool :)

We can't post photos or even links to a photo site for the rest of us to see the supercharger pics?

It sounds like a job well done...congratulations, Murray!

Jack Tertadian

----- Original Message -----

From: roger.gerl@bluewin.ch

To: xwing@wi.rr.com

Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 07:25

Murray,

I'm impressed by the clean install of the small and nice blower for sure.. I've seen one that was installed directly on the lower intake with lot's of problems on height as well as belt drive. Looks like you have a longer shaft to the blower too but probably strong enough bearings so it will last. Why not creating a kit and selling it ? And what about front wheel traction (depending on the power it makes).

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks, Roger G.

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32

Roger,

I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant.. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue..

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100°C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!
I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.
Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Pete,
I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..
>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.
Pete Rivenburg

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Thanks Pete,
FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.
>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.
Pete Rivenburg

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Matt,
I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.
My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.
BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4
Appreciate your input.
>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14..5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.
The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).
-Matt

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Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

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Re: re:: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T08:20:05Z

Algorithms?

From: Murray Bruns <murraybruns@yahoo.com>
To: Willis,Charles E
Sent: Thu Mar 11 08:05:27 2010
Subject: [Team3S] re:: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Roger,

>>>Murray Bruns

94 3000GT SL <<Supercharged>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:25:14 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Murray,

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns



From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100°C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

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Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T08:10:05Z

Roger,

As a side bar, M90 Eaton superchargers are not small, they are capable of providing air up to 5L engines.

>>>Murray Bruns

94 3000GT SL <<Supercharged>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:25:14 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Murray,

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns



From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100�C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

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re:: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T08:06:03Z

Roger,

>>>Murray Bruns

94 3000GT SL <<Supercharged>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:25:14 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Murray,

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns



From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100�C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

This list is currently closed to future subscribers.

Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T07:26:03Z

Murray,

Now put the baby onto a dyno and let's see what 6lbs do (or have you had it measured already?). My calc sheet estimat6es a 270hp @ 6500.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:58
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns



From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100°C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

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Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T07:20:03Z

Roger,

Because you and others haveÂ asked this was my original post

>>>Murray Bruns
Somerset, KY.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Murray Bruns <murraybruns@yahoo.com>;
To: Team3S List <Team3S@Team3S.com>;
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 12:23:24 PM
Subject: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Last October I wrote wanting to know whether there were any Team3S members that hadÂ experiences with Supercharging an NA engine.Â Boy did I get an earful!Â Nearly 9 out of 10 responses berated my query telling me that it can't be done or those that tried failed and/or screwed up their engines, or had so many problems they reverted back to their NA or hung turbos instead.Â I was demonized for even thinking outside the turbo charging box.Â Most suggested that if I want real performance dump my SL and buy a VR4.Â Thanks to theseÂ nay sayers, it intensified my desire to supercharge my 3000.Â To cut to the chase I supercharged my 1994 SL early this year and am presently running a very well behaved DOHC engine at 6 pounds of boost.Â Engine runs very smoothly, starts easily, with instantaneous throttle response and never runs out of air.Â Air/fuel reading reports stoich with never a lean condition.Â Engine maintains good vacuum for brakes and
accessories.Â Car
now has some real teeth and can hold its own with any VR4 but I have to admit my SL has a distinct advantage â€“ Although Iâ€™m producing about the sameÂ HP as a VR4 itâ€™s 400 lbs lighter! Â I enjoy the fact that I have something very unique and love the additional power, no lag, and that Root's whine.Â Â Â If any NA owners are interested in supercharging their 3000 or Stealth write me at re.route@newwavecomm.net as I know a prolonged thread on this subject will be bombarded by the same nay sayers that lectured me last year.Â Â Â Â

Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

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Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T06:59:02Z

Roger,

I'll send you some pictures. One thing I forgot to mention was your glaring statement about not being possible to run a roots supercharger. My application uses a Eaton M90 (roots style supercharger). Got to think outside the box!

Pictures will be coming in the next 30 minutes. Let me know if you have a special email address to sent to?

>>>Murray Bruns

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 7:43:28 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

But reading the not so gently words, it seems that you found a good way to do an install and I really like to see the pics and details on how you mounted it with color TVs, the mentioned toilet and a wireless phone driven supercharger. Sure you have documented what you've done and you probably have posted a link in the original thread. If you don't mind please post it again for reference.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100�C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

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Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T06:44:08Z

Well, the whole thread was not attached to the original mail and I did not read it because I was outside my country.

Thanks

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT TT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Datum: 11.03.2010 13:32
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Roger,

    I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

-->

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100°C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

To Unsub, please visit http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm

Subscribe to Team3S via email by entering your email address below:

This list is currently closed to future subscribers.

Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T06:33:02Z

Roger,

I have done it, the supercharger is on and operating flawlessly - try reading the entire thread before you go off on your rant. BTW - technology has made giant leaps, TVs are now in color, toilets are indoors, phone don't need wires and superchargers can live happly on DOHC 6G72 engines!

Murray Bruns

1994 3000GT SL <<SUPERCHARGED>>

From: "roger.gerl@bluewin.ch" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 5:42:15 AM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

There were two supercharger upgrades for the NA engines on the market some years ago. Both failed due to the complicated mountings they needed. One was done with a pulley on the belt side with a longer shaft going to the drivers side were it drove the charger. The whole thing was very sensitive against vibration and sealing of the bearings. Of course it can be done better but this adds a lot of weight and space is still an issue.

In fact the only problem we really have is space. There is simply not enough available to mount a supercharger to the front side (i.e. drivers side) of the engine. Also a roots type supercharger is not an option as the engine mount makes it almost impossible to get a belt driving it. Also the height of the hood will become an issue as a new lower and upper intake manifold needs to be engineered.

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100�C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

The problem why this project may not end in much of success is the fact that over the years technology has not changed to a point were new parts or new inventions are available to be used to be successful. Sure electrical blowers are more efficient today and using them has prooven to add a few hp. But today you still have the very same parts and tools available as many others have had years ago. So the main problem you have to solve is where to mount the blower that it can easily be driven by a belt from the crank. The rest is "simply" installing larger injectors, using a better fuel pump and a fuel and ignition controlling device (e.g. AEM). Creating headers is only adding a few horses and optimizing the system. In fact you should create a list what have to be solved at what point and then proceed step by step without doing many things in parallel. i.e. start striping everything out the engine bay but the engine and tranny. Also remove AC, radiator, exhaust parts and the alternator (the later may be replaced by a smaller one). Now get there and find the necessary room. Maybe you cut the frame and make the whole cars nose longer by 10 inches or so. This would give you room for the blower as well as a larger tank for WAIS or what ever else. Then you need the mechanical solution to hold the blower and drive it by the crank. Again room is your enemy here even with the longer nose. Make a real project plan were you can make sure everything fits together and you'll be successful in the end.

Good luck, if you will proceed with the project. Many started and then never reported again as people do not like to tell that they have abandoned their project due to lack of solutions, time and money.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

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Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

2010-03-11T04:43:03Z

The math about fuel, ignition, cooling, etc. is one side, the experience some people made by trying to turbocharge or supercharge the NA engines may help to find the critical elements. For the high comrpession engine anything above 5 psi of boost killed the engine. Adding a WAIS lowers combution temperatures but also increase compression (water cannot be compressed). If I remember correctly, one lowered the compression with aftemarket pistons to be able to run higher boost. Intercooling depends on the discharge temperatures of the compressor wheel. Of course it may go above 100°C and therefore intercooling needs to be there. I'd definitely watch those temps too and do the calc right when choosing the wheel or type of supercharger. It needlass to say that fuel and igniton must be adapted to the new system.

Roger G.

93&96 3000GT

www.rtec.ch

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
Von: Chwillis@mdanderson.org
Datum: 10.03.2010 22:55
An: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Betreff: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

At least you seem wise enough to have considered that you were coloring outside the lines. Some very creative and imaginative folks do not even recognize the lines, and that's where the danger lies. Congratulations on your ingenuity and perserverence! If you happen to have some objective data, such as a time slip from a drag strip, I'm sure the folks on this list would be even more impressed with your result!

I am curious to know how the speed of your supercharger is modulated, whether by a mechanical belt drive or an electrical signal.

Chuck Willis

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Willis,Charles E
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Pete,

I found in my queries back in October of 2009 most folks overwhelming favored turbos to the point that it impared their imagination and thought processes. Had most folks not been so vehemently opposed to supercharging I may have not pursued it. Because of this overwhelming prejudice towards supercharging I decided to make it my quest to prove those nay sayers wrong. Besides, I wanted to do something different and create something unique,not just be another turbo owner. Supercharing has been done for decades. whether big hp applications or small. I saw nothing impossible about this task so I decided to do it. All it took was a "can do attitude" some imaginaion, and a little reseach. Many TeamS3 folks need to try thinking "Outside the Box" where they will discover there is more than one way to skin a cat..

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Let us all know how it works out, this has been a hot button subject here over the years with a lot of heat & very little light for us NA drivers.
The consensus here has been that it's not worth the money, cheaper to buy a VR4.
Id like to see some different input since I own a 93 NA DOHC.
This group IS really technical though and a GREAT resource, without this list my NA would have gone south LONG ago.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:58 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Thanks Pete,

FMU and ECU will be adjusted accordingly.

>>>Murray

----- Original Message ----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:41:23 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

When you put the new headers on Murray,
You should get it made with bungs for EGT sensors (Exhaust Gas Temperature) on both sides, get the EGT setup with built in ignition cutoff. You CANT go wrong that way & fry your engine. $300 to protect $6000.
Headers tend to lean out fuel mix.
EGT sensors don't care WHY it went lean (too hot) they just shut it down right now before the damage is done.
Tweak A/F & run again.

Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Bruns [mailto:murraybruns@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:17 PM
To: Rivenburg, Pete
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

Matt,

I have research fuel ratios to great length for supercharged applications such as mine and according to the engineers I'm in the sweet spot for a non racing application. Maybe for turbos running under a racing condition 8;1 is correct I don't know but from what I've read in the last few hours 8:1 is extremetly rich.

My motor pulls very very hard, doesn't miss a beat, no black smoke, no unusual engine temps. I'm totally satisfied that A/Fs are correct for my usage.

BTW - running 6 pounds of boost on a 10:1 compression ratio engine has an effective boost rate of 10 pounds of boost on a 8:1 engine like that found on a VR4

Appreciate your input.

>>>Murray
94 3000GT SL Supercharged

----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@gmail.com>
To: murraybruns@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:32:42 PM
Subject: [Team3S] Re: Supercharging a NA DOHC

> If stoich is considered a f/a ratio of 12.5 and 14.5, I would say that under
> acceleration I run around little less than 12 and cruise a little below 14.
> Obviously the A/F is changing constantly but I would say those numbers
> are fairly representative.

The definition of stoichiometric for gasoline is 14.7:1. You should
be around there during light load cruise, and around 11.5-11.8:1 while
under heavy load (boost).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
'93 3000GT VR4

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This list is currently closed to future subscribers.